[00:00:00] Marc Stickdorn: Welcome to This is Journey Management. I'm Marc Stickdorn. My guest [00:00:05] today does not really need an introduction. Professor Birgit Mager. Birgit [00:00:10] Mager became the very first professor of service design back in [00:00:15] 1995. She recently retired from her professorship, and while she was [00:00:20] cleaning out her office, she found loads of artefacts of 30 years of [00:00:25] service design history.
[00:00:26] Marc Stickdorn: In today's episode, we are going to look at some of these artefacts [00:00:30] and hear some of these stories of 30 years doing service design. [00:00:35] Enjoy.[00:00:40]
[00:00:40] Marc Stickdorn: Birgit, it's such a pleasure to have you today.
[00:00:43] Birgit Mager: Marc, thanks so much for inviting me. [00:00:45]
[00:00:46] Marc Stickdorn: It's, I, I, I know many of you know you, [00:00:50] so I, I actually would love to use this opportunity, um, to give you a bit more space [00:00:55] and introduce yourself and maybe while you're introducing, you could already [00:01:00] share, how did you get into service design a long [00:01:05] time ago and when was that?
[00:01:07] Birgit Mager: Yeah, that is really a good question because, uh, [00:01:10] it was a bit of, of magic that I had never expected in my life. I studied [00:01:15] psychology and, um, focused on organisational development and human [00:01:20] resources development because, uh, I preferred to, um, [00:01:25] avoid problems as opposed to fixing them. And when you work with [00:01:30] organisations and human resources, you can potentially create environments within which, [00:01:35] uh, people can have a good and healthy, uh, working [00:01:40] life.
[00:01:40] Birgit Mager: So that was my idea. And, um, I had my [00:01:45] very first big, uh, job with Hewlett-Packard. Um, and I [00:01:50] started that, I think it was 1988. [00:01:55] Um, and I was in charge then of three organisational units as an [00:02:00] organisational developer. Among them was the medical unit. And, uh, it was the [00:02:05] time when, when all industries realised that they had to shift from the focus [00:02:10] on products to a solution focus.
[00:02:12] Birgit Mager: So that was the big buzzword at the time, [00:02:15] solution. And that was a huge challenge because organisations were focused on [00:02:20] technology, on, you know, making production processes more efficient, more [00:02:25] innovative, and then in the end push out some unit, [00:02:30] uh, and ship it to the customer. Uh, so the, the customer relationship was [00:02:35] basically ending when the contract was signed and the bill was paid.
[00:02:38] Birgit Mager: And now suddenly [00:02:40] they had to try and understand what is it that the customer is really doing with the product, and [00:02:45] what is the challenges they are facing, and how can we as a provider, uh, [00:02:50] create bundles of products and services that unburden the customer [00:02:55] from the yeah, uh, uh, hassle [00:03:00] of repair, the hassle of, uh, maintenance, the hassle of, uh, updates, et cetera, [00:03:05] et cetera.
[00:03:05] Birgit Mager: So, and we really had to change a lot of structures within [00:03:10] the organisation, processes, but also the attitude of people and the [00:03:15] culture needed to change to no longer focus on, on the desk of the production side, [00:03:20] but to focus on, you know, what happens beyond the boundaries of the organisation. So [00:03:25] that was my role and I really enjoyed it.
[00:03:27] Birgit Mager: Um, but, um, if [00:03:30] you know Germany a little bit, uh, Hewlett-Packard is located in Baden-Württemberg, uh, [00:03:35] exactly in Böblingen and, um, so what we say, it's the Schwaben, and the [00:03:40] Schwaben, it's slightly different mentality than the people from the Rhineland. And [00:03:45] I was born and raised in Rhineland. And, um, I have to say, I really wanted [00:03:50] to go back, uh, to, to this, uh, part of the world where people are, let's say [00:03:55] maybe a bit more easygoing.
[00:03:56] Birgit Mager: And so I, I moved back to, uh, to [00:04:00] Cologne and I had a leading role in a, in a turnaround management for a very, [00:04:05] very old family-run company. Um, 4711, but [00:04:10] I don't want to get into that story. It was in the end also about moving from the product focus to [00:04:15] the market and, and customer focus. Uh, during that time when that [00:04:20] turn turnaround management was happening, I met one person who really changed [00:04:25] my life, and that is Michael Erlhoff.
[00:04:27] Birgit Mager: Mm-hmm. Um, some of you might know Michael Erlhoff. [00:04:30] He was at that time the founding dean of the Köln International School of Design, and [00:04:35] he had a completely different approach to design, um, which I would even today [00:04:40] say is still innovative. Unfortunately, he has passed away two years ago. Um, but I [00:04:45] think he has left an everlasting, um, impact on the world of design.
[00:04:49] Birgit Mager: Absolutely. So his [00:04:50] understanding was that designers are not there to, uh, make things [00:04:55] pretty and, um, to make them maybe even easier to use. His [00:05:00] idea was that designers are there to, to help solve the relevant problems of this world. [00:05:05] And those are ecological problems, social problems, [00:05:10] um, economical problems.
[00:05:11] Birgit Mager: Um, and as a designer, you know, [00:05:15] it's like if you only know the hammer, the whole world is a nail. So if you are a graphic [00:05:20] designer, you will always try to find a graphic solution to problems. Mm-hmm. Et cetera. If you're a product [00:05:25] designer, it's the product solution. So Michael wanted designers to be more holistic, to [00:05:30] have the ability to really look at, at.
[00:05:33] Birgit Mager: Ecosystems [00:05:35] from different perspectives through different lenses in order to find then the best [00:05:40] possible solution. And in order to educate young designers in that way, he [00:05:45] had different new topics, uh, fields of expert [00:05:50] expertise. For example, already in the, it was 91 when he conceptualised this, [00:05:55] he had, um, ecology and design.
[00:05:57] Birgit Mager: Mm-hmm. And Marc, were you still already born [00:06:00] then? 1991? I'm not,
[00:06:03] Marc Stickdorn: yes. I already went to high school. [00:06:05]
[00:06:05] Birgit Mager: Oh my God. Yes. Okay. So, uh, at that [00:06:10] time, ecology, it was, uh, like a, a really [00:06:15] micro topic that the Green Party was trying to push into the awareness. And, and [00:06:20] Michael said, no, it's not some, some obscure, uh, uh, left-wing, [00:06:25] uh, initiative.
[00:06:25] Birgit Mager: It is super important that in design we include the lens of [00:06:30] ecology in whatever we do. Um, he also had the topic of gender and [00:06:35] design. Can you imagine gender and design? In 1991, people just laughed and said, [00:06:40] oh, what's that gender and design? Um, and the same about service design. [00:06:45] So it was Michael Erlhoff who put service design as a, as an area of expertise into this [00:06:50] integrated design education.
[00:06:51] Birgit Mager: And then he didn't find a professor, professor for it because [00:06:55] service design didn't exist. And then we met, Marc, uh, Michael and I, and he, [00:07:00] he was really fascinated by what I was doing at this fringe, at this edge of, of [00:07:05] psychology, organisation, um, service orientation, [00:07:10] solution development, et cetera. And he asked me if I would not want to become professor.
[00:07:14] Birgit Mager: I had [00:07:15] to think about it for a couple of days. But I found it totally fascinating to bring together [00:07:20] the world of services and the world of design. So I said yes, and [00:07:25] then I started an application process, which is quite intense in Germany. [00:07:30] Um, and well, but as you can see, I succeeded. And in, um, January, [00:07:35] 1995, I was officially, um, announced, um, a lifelong professor for service [00:07:40] design in Cologne.
[00:07:41] Marc Stickdorn: That's so fantastic. Even though it's [00:07:45] late. Congratulations again. And, and I have to say thank you for, [00:07:50] for doing this. 'cause you, you opened up service design to so many [00:07:55] people. But, but we gotta get there. Like I would, I would love, so first of all, [00:08:00] thank you for the, uh, for the introduction. Let, let's start there and [00:08:05] let's use the, the episode today to reflect on [00:08:10] 40 years, 40 plus years of service design.
[00:08:14] Marc Stickdorn: 'cause you've [00:08:15] seen it all from the very beginning to the phase where it really [00:08:20] kicked off and, and, and also the struggles we had then with [00:08:25] pandemic and anything that happened in the recent years. So I'm curious to see. [00:08:30] How do you see service design evolve? And maybe to explain [00:08:35] what Birgit and I discussed is Birgit might show some artefacts, [00:08:40] things she um, collected throughout the years, and [00:08:45] maybe we can go through it as a timeline.
[00:08:47] Marc Stickdorn: Starting in 95, what was the [00:08:50] state of service design in 1995?
[00:08:53] Birgit Mager: Well, I think the [00:08:55] term service design had been used once by Lynn Shostack from the service marketing [00:09:00] domain, but she had a very, let's say, um, design, uh, or physical [00:09:05] space driven idea of what service design, uh, could be. But anyway, I think [00:09:10] Lynn Shostack and Mary Jo Bitner from the service marketing domain had really prepared the [00:09:15] ground for service design.
[00:09:17] Birgit Mager: I have met them, uh, many times, uh, in the [00:09:20] service marketing conferences. And, uh, it was always fascinating how much they embraced then the [00:09:25] real understanding of what design and service design can do in the domain of service [00:09:30] quality and service innovation. So, but they, they prepared the ground. And so in the very early [00:09:35] times, I, um, spend a lot of time trying to understand what the [00:09:40] marketing people were doing in the domain of services and trying to figure out how can [00:09:45] design really feed into the innovation of services and the [00:09:50] improvement of quality of services.
[00:09:51] Birgit Mager: 'cause at that time, specifically in Germany, we were talking a lot about the [00:09:55] service desert. Yes. Um, and, uh, and politicians claimed that, [00:10:00] um, that, uh, people in Germany would rather, um, um, serve a machine than [00:10:05] another human being. So there was really, really, uh, pressure to, you know, bring, [00:10:10] bring innovation into the world of services.
[00:10:13] Birgit Mager: Anyway, there was already service [00:10:15] marketing and there was already, let's say, experience design, UI [00:10:20] design, interface design. Um, and, and that was like [00:10:25] really close, even though they were usually focusing on the interface [00:10:30] between humans and machines. Mm-hmm. So they were designing interactions and experiences of, of [00:10:35] human machine interface, but still they were, uh, [00:10:40] looking at processes.
[00:10:40] Birgit Mager: And I think that is the most important shift, that when you design graphic [00:10:45] or you design a product, uh, or fashion, you look at a, at a static [00:10:50] outcome. Uh, but the world was changing and suddenly we were having these, you know, ongoing, [00:10:55] um, movements in time that needed to be designed. So it was really [00:11:00] good that, uh, those, those initiatives were already there, but still service design in that sense [00:11:05] did not exist.
[00:11:05] Birgit Mager: And I felt that my, my mission is [00:11:10] not only to create a good curriculum, so to educate students, uh, in and [00:11:15] give them opportunities to embrace the world of services through the lens of [00:11:20] design. But my mission was also to prepare the ground for jobs. Uh, because what, what [00:11:25] use is it, uh, to educate students if then in the end they will never be working as service [00:11:30] designer?
[00:11:30] Birgit Mager: So. I had put a lot of effort in spreading the word, and I [00:11:35] still do, by the way. So that was always part of my mission. That's like teaching and [00:11:40] preaching. Um, and, um, I was quite fortunate, I have to say, [00:11:45] first of all, I mean Michael Erlhoff, he not only, um, opened the opportunity to [00:11:50] apply for the professorship, but he also pushed me into writing the [00:11:55] first book about service design.
[00:11:57] Birgit Mager: And that was in 1996 that [00:12:00] he said, Birgit, you have to make a book. Michael, I was so [00:12:05] young and I had no experience in publishing. And he said, yes, you're going to do it [00:12:10] and, uh, you're going to do it together with me and with Ezio Manzini.
[00:12:13] Marc Stickdorn: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:14] Birgit Mager: Okay. [00:12:15] Ezio Manzini at that time, I mean, everybody knows Ezio. He was at the Politecnico di [00:12:20] Milano and they were already like moving towards this product service system.
[00:12:24] Birgit Mager: Domain [00:12:25] plus Ezio has always been really great in the social innovation domain. So there were lots of, you [00:12:30] know, um, overlaps between our views of interest and the word service design resonated [00:12:35] really well with him. So I had to write a book, uh, or to make a book. [00:12:40] Um, and here it is. This is the first book on service design.[00:12:45]
[00:12:47] Birgit Mager: It, even today, when, when I look at it, it's, it's [00:12:50] still amazing. There's so much interesting stuff in there. Um, the, the only bad thing about [00:12:55] the book, it was only in German. Um, so, but anyway, at that time, I have to [00:13:00] say, uh, we, we were international. Um, I was already [00:13:05] teaching in Hong Kong in the year 1997. I was in Aspen at the [00:13:10] design summit in 1998, so it was international, but [00:13:15] still teaching education was more focused on a, on a more [00:13:20] German, uh, level.
[00:13:21] Birgit Mager: So this book was really great. And the next thing that happened, [00:13:25] um, you have to laugh. Yes. [00:13:30]
[00:13:31] Marc Stickdorn: Yes. Famous German, um,
[00:13:34] Birgit Mager: [00:13:35] that's what
[00:13:35] Marc Stickdorn: Business magazine, right?
[00:13:37] Birgit Mager: Marketing and Business Magazine. And, uh, [00:13:40] they had this, um, yeah, cover about service design in May [00:13:45] 19, uh, 98. Uh, wow. And I mean, that was just an [00:13:50] example. Uh, by the way, I'm, I have been cleaning my office at the [00:13:55] university throughout the last weeks because I am retired, uh, since August [00:14:00] 1st.
[00:14:00] Birgit Mager: And I mean, that was really the, the, the reason why I started to, to stumble over all [00:14:05] these artefacts and, and collect some of which I find they are really like milestones in the [00:14:10] development of service design. So for me, this little article was, the cover story was a [00:14:15] milestone because it led to huge interest in, in, [00:14:20] let's say the, the field of innovation in Germany.
[00:14:23] Birgit Mager: Um, and you are in [00:14:25] Austria, Marc, uh, and you know, Austrians are by heart [00:14:30] innovators. Mm. So
[00:14:33] Marc Stickdorn: even though I have to say I am German, [00:14:35] I just moved here 20 years ago,
[00:14:37] Birgit Mager: you know, the Austrians very well and how innovative. [00:14:40] So, um, this is a joke. Uh, um, but you know, Matthias Horx [00:14:45] and Matthias Horx with his Zukunftsinstitut, Future Institute, at that time in the, [00:14:50] in the early nineties, he was really like preaching, uh, and teaching [00:14:55] how to, how to.
[00:14:57] Birgit Mager: Design for the future. And [00:15:00] he had this future conference once a year, and he had invited me as a keynote speaker. I [00:15:05] was 37 ish. He invite invited me as a keynote speaker, I think [00:15:10] twice, if not even three times for his, um, future summit. And [00:15:15] there I stumbled over all these innovators from the [00:15:20] huge corporations in Germany.
[00:15:22] Birgit Mager: You know, the, the corporations might not be innovative. I, [00:15:25] I, I talked to the Deutsche Telekom, to Deutsche Bank, to Siemens to, you name it, you got [00:15:30] it. But from these organisations, it was always like the crazy people who went to Matthias [00:15:35] Horx. So I met all the crazy people there who got really, really interested in, [00:15:40] in what I was talking about.
[00:15:41] Birgit Mager: And they were fascinated by the idea of bringing [00:15:45] design to, to services. And, um, yeah. I I would love to [00:15:50] show one, one evidence of my artefact, [00:15:55] uh, here. Um, this is really funny. Wait a second. [00:16:00] It's a big one.
[00:16:01] Marc Stickdorn: Okay.
[00:16:03] Birgit Mager: It's a, it's a game [00:16:05] and it's a game that we designed, I think it was in [00:16:10] 1999, um, for Siemens. It was Siemens.[00:16:15]
[00:16:15] Birgit Mager: And at that time they had the business, uh, solution unit. Um, and [00:16:20] that was where all the services that the Siemens was trying to provide were bundled. [00:16:25] And they had a problem. They had a problem that it was really hard to sell [00:16:30] the services. Mm-hmm. It was easy to sell the products, but why should people pay money [00:16:35] for services, these invisible, immaterial, um, [00:16:40] you know?
[00:16:41] Birgit Mager: Yes. So they, they asked me if we [00:16:45] could not develop something that would help to explain the value of [00:16:50] services. And at that time I was really crazy. I said, uh, to them, yes, [00:16:55] uh, I'm sure we can, uh, we need, um, six weeks and one [00:17:00] of that weeks we need to spend in a ski hut in, um, Austria. [00:17:05]
[00:17:06] Marc Stickdorn: Of course,
[00:17:07] Birgit Mager: I don't exactly remember how I explained that [00:17:10] we needed to be in a ski hut.
[00:17:13] Birgit Mager: I must have been very convincing because we [00:17:15] found ourselves in, uh, the Austrian mountains in a beautiful little ski hut [00:17:20] with a group of, um, I think it was seven or eight among us, was Gesche Joost, [00:17:25] who is today the head of the Goethe-Institut, or Nancy Birkhölzer, who is, [00:17:30] uh, co-founder of IXDS. And she was, uh, with PwC, so they were really [00:17:35] [unclear], uh, Pentagon, so cool people.
[00:17:38] Birgit Mager: And we were in that ski hut student [00:17:40] project. We had to go skiing during the day. Of course, [00:17:45] when we got home, horrible. We needed to have a drink. Uh, after skiing, you need a drink and we needed some [00:17:50] food, then we needed to rest. And at some po at some point in the [00:17:55] evening, we would be sitting together and we would be working.
[00:17:58] Birgit Mager: And, uh, throughout [00:18:00] that week, we created the outline of this game, which was [00:18:05] then really produced and it was given to, uh, all key [00:18:10] accounts, um, to enable the people to play with [00:18:15] service. So you have all these things like hackers and consultancy and, [00:18:20] um, integration. So all kinds of services that would rescue you in the [00:18:25] game and would help you to achieve your goals.
[00:18:27] Birgit Mager: And
[00:18:28] Marc Stickdorn: I would love to play that. [00:18:30]
[00:18:30] Birgit Mager: It's, it's wonderful. This is the short introduction on [00:18:35] how to play the game. So it was really, it was a big success. Um, [00:18:40] and it's, uh, that is just one example of, you know, how industries suddenly [00:18:45] found service design really, really useful. Not only for, you know, [00:18:50] um, improving the user experience, but mainly also for [00:18:55] explaining what our services, what is the value of services and, and [00:19:00] how can I put a price tag on services.
[00:19:02] Birgit Mager: So that was really fun project.
[00:19:04] Marc Stickdorn: [00:19:05] Wow. 1999.
[00:19:08] Birgit Mager: Yeah. Yeah, that was really a [00:19:10] big thing. Um, and as I said, I was, uh, in touch with many of [00:19:15] the, the big corporates. And, um, one, one of the most amazing things [00:19:20] was Lufthansa. I've talked about that project quite a bit. Lufthansa [00:19:25] in the year 2001 asked me if we could not [00:19:30] improve the traveller experience on long distance travel in economy, business, and first.[00:19:35]
[00:19:36] Marc Stickdorn: Hey,
[00:19:37] Birgit Mager: no problem. Sure. [00:19:40] So, um, we, we brought together a project team [00:19:45] and of course we did desk research, but of course we had to travel long distance in [00:19:50] economy, business. And first, um, was really fun. We had a [00:19:55] lot of interviews with passengers, with flight attendants, the pursers, the ground staff, [00:20:00] and all interdisciplinary workshops.
[00:20:02] Birgit Mager: And I had onboarded a theatre [00:20:05] director for that project. Um, because I felt that it might be an interesting perspective [00:20:10] on what does performing arts add to the experience [00:20:15] in an aeroplane where you are bound to your seat and, uh, you [00:20:20] spend time only, you know, being able to see the screen in front of you or [00:20:25] outside the window.
[00:20:26] Birgit Mager: So what is the perspective of arts on service experience? [00:20:30] And for the first time, I had brought a really cool, um, graphic designer [00:20:35] mm-hmm. [unclear name], um, to the project. And, um, together, we [00:20:40] created then based on our insights scenarios of, um, not [00:20:45] yet existing service experiences. And we put them into [00:20:50] storyboards.
[00:20:51] Birgit Mager: So we really worked with the storyboard perspective, [00:20:55] um, from theatre. What are the, what is the stage, what roles [00:21:00] are there, what's the behaviour of the actors? What are the props being used? [00:21:05] What are the costumes, um, what's happening next stage? And so we had [00:21:10] lots and lots of these, um, things, and also visualisations, [00:21:15] really beautiful visualisations.
[00:21:17] Birgit Mager: This is just the small version, but you see that [00:21:20] every, every scene was, uh, described. Indeed, yes. On September, [00:21:25] um, 10th, 2001, we presented that project in, uh, [00:21:30] Frankfurt at the, uh, Lufthansa terminal. So this is still the original [00:21:35] entrance tag that you get when you enter the securities. You might [00:21:40] remember what happened the day after.
[00:21:41] Birgit Mager: Yes, 9/11. Lights went out. [00:21:45] No more service design. And that was really a shame because our presentation was really great. There [00:21:50] was so much enthusiasm, so much energy, you know, to keep going. And, um, [00:21:55] but after of course, 9/11, uh, they had, uh, different [00:22:00] problems and, but interestingly enough, uh, service design stayed with [00:22:05] Lufthansa.
[00:22:05] Birgit Mager: And that's another story that I'm not going to tell now. In [00:22:10] 2013, they came back to me and I said they had installed the service design [00:22:15] approach internally, but now they had a budget to do a big service design project again, which [00:22:20] in the end I did not win, but IDEO won the pitch. Um, but that's another story as I, [00:22:25] but those were,
[00:22:25] Marc Stickdorn: if you're interested in the story, it's in the book.
[00:22:28] Marc Stickdorn: This is Service Design Doing, actually, [00:22:30] there's a case study on that project.
[00:22:34] Birgit Mager: Great. [00:22:35] Yeah. So those were the times when, when I, I today call it like the, the [00:22:40] expansion time. I always, I often talk about the first five years as the, the yeah. [00:22:45] Framing time where we started to, I was pretty much alone at that time, [00:22:50] uh, where I started to build definition and curricular [00:22:55] and try to play with different methods, et cetera.
[00:22:58] Birgit Mager: But then in the [00:23:00] early two thousands, it really was starting an expansion that the companies became interested and, [00:23:05] uh, the first
[00:23:06] Marc Stickdorn: agencies.
[00:23:08] Birgit Mager: Yeah, in [00:23:10] 2004, uh, I had the first, no, in 2003, I had the first meeting in London, [00:23:15] um, with people like Livework, Engine and Spirit of [00:23:20] Creation was very important partner at that time.
[00:23:22] Birgit Mager: And we decided that we need to make this a [00:23:25] movement. Uh, and um, yeah, that's what we then start to do. And today the Service Design [00:23:30] Network has around 30,000 followers all over the world and, uh, about one and [00:23:35] a half thousand members. Uh, so yes, we made it a movement throughout the last, um, [00:23:40] 22 years.
[00:23:41] Marc Stickdorn: Oh, yes.
[00:23:43] Marc Stickdorn: And that's, that's how we met actually [00:23:45] in 2008. That was the, for, for me, it was the very [00:23:50] first Service Design Global Conference. And, and I think it was the, the first [00:23:55] main conference. I know you had events before, but it was the first event that [00:24:00] really brought a global community together. And it was, it was for me, like a first [00:24:05] family meeting where I get to know like famous names I just heard of, I read [00:24:10] of, but I'd never met in reality.
[00:24:11] Marc Stickdorn: That was fantastic.
[00:24:13] Birgit Mager: Yeah, that was really great. And it was [00:24:15] indeed the very first global Service Design Network conference. Um, there [00:24:20] were, uh, two conferences, um, at Carnegie Mellon the years [00:24:25] before, the Emergence conferences that Shelley Evenson and also Jamin [00:24:30] Hegeman had, um, organised. And, uh, Shelley was a part of this [00:24:35] core team of Service Design Network.
[00:24:37] Birgit Mager: And while in the very first years it [00:24:40] was more like academic thing where, um, we did some [00:24:45] research projects together. In 2007, [00:24:50] 2008, Shelley and I decided that we need to open this to the world and that [00:24:55] we really need to make it a movement. And um, so then we decided to have a conference, [00:25:00] and that was then Amsterdam 2008 where we met.
[00:25:03] Birgit Mager: And, uh, [00:25:05] imagine in October we are going to have the 19th global conference [00:25:10] in Wow. In Frankfurt Rhine-Main region collaborating with the World Design Capital. [00:25:15] Uh, so 19 years of Service Design Global Conferences. It's amazing.
[00:25:19] Marc Stickdorn: It's [00:25:20] all over the world. It's, and it's, it's for me, like the annual family gathering.
[00:25:24] Birgit Mager: [00:25:25] Fortunately
[00:25:25] Marc Stickdorn: that's where we all meet.
[00:25:26] Birgit Mager: Yeah. Fortunately we have also very many new people joining every [00:25:30] year and it's interesting. They also sense it's a kind [00:25:35] of family meeting, but not one where you are excluded if you are new. Yeah. One where you are automatically [00:25:40] part of the family. So I would say, I don't know any other community that is as [00:25:45] open-minded, as inclusive, as friendly as, it's just, it's just [00:25:50] always the, the spirit of these days that also give me the energy to keep going.
[00:25:53] Birgit Mager: Because I mean, I've been doing [00:25:55] this as a volunteer now for 22 years, and you can, you can trust it's a bit [00:26:00] more than a volunteering should be, but these, these days of the [00:26:05] conference always give back so much energy and such an amazing [00:26:10] spirit. Uh, people are amazing. So yeah, it's 19 years of family meetings where [00:26:15] everybody is embraced to be part of this and, and learn together and, and have fun together.[00:26:20]
[00:26:20] Marc Stickdorn: Yes. I'm looking forward to that. Uh, in October, end of October [00:26:25] in Frankfurt.
[00:26:27] Birgit Mager: Maybe you can put the link in the show notes [00:26:30] later. That would be
[00:26:30] Marc Stickdorn: lovely. I'll, I'll, if we look at those 19 years, I mean, [00:26:35] 2008 for me that was like, uh, I, I felt like a boy opening a box of toys. Suddenly I had [00:26:40] names for things I was doing and, and I think your story also shares [00:26:45] what, what many of us share, like our background might not be in design, but we got [00:26:50] into design because design is, in the end a team sport, right?
[00:26:54] Marc Stickdorn: You need people who are [00:26:55] good at research, good at prototyping, good at facilitation. But if you look [00:27:00] at those 19 years, what were the big topics, the, the, if you [00:27:05] put it into stages, who make a journey map of those 19 years of Service [00:27:10] Design Global Conference and service design community, what were the big topics over the [00:27:15] years and how did it change?
[00:27:17] Birgit Mager: Well, uh, that's a good question. [00:27:20] Um, I have not yet drawn that map, but it might trigger me to do so. [00:27:25] Uh, I think in the beginning it was very much about, uh, creating a [00:27:30] shared understanding of what service design is, uh, because even though I had been into service design [00:27:35] for more than 10 years, um, for most people of the world, it was still very [00:27:40] new.
[00:27:40] Birgit Mager: And, um, we were still inventing what we were doing while we were doing it. [00:27:45] So these first years were, we see a lot about Yeah. [00:27:50] Um, building the ground. And we also started then publishing Touchpoint. Oh yeah. [00:27:55] Um, this is the very, very first issue that I found when I was cleaning my [00:28:00] office. Um, it was published in April, 2009, so half a year after the [00:28:05] first conference.
[00:28:06] Birgit Mager: And I think this kind of, you know, is an indicator for, for [00:28:10] what we were doing. What is service design? Service design from products to [00:28:15] people, Lavrans Løvlie. Or, um, Dutch design, time for a new [00:28:20] definition, Marcel Zwiers. So people that still are very active today are here in [00:28:25] this first, uh, you can download it by the way, for free, I think on the SDN website, [00:28:30] the, the PDF of this very first Touchpoint.
[00:28:32] Birgit Mager: Nice. Um, yeah, so that was the [00:28:35] first phase, building the ground, uh, creating a shared understanding. Um, [00:28:40] and then I think it became much more about business. [00:28:45] Um, what is the, the business, um, perspective on service [00:28:50] design, what's the value of service design? Uh, how can we measure the value of service design?[00:28:55]
[00:28:55] Birgit Mager: How can we measure the value of user experience in general? And the topic of [00:29:00] journey mapping started to expand. And Marc, you were at the heart of that, [00:29:05] um, that we no longer looked at the individual journey maps and the personas [00:29:10] and, you know, all that. Um, but that we started to see the, the business [00:29:15] interconnectivity mm-hmm.
[00:29:15] Birgit Mager: Of what we were doing. And, uh, at that time, for me [00:29:20] personally, I started pushing very much the implementation [00:29:25] component. 'cause I have to say that designers in general tend to see [00:29:30] themselves as the creatives that come up with great ideas, maybe even concepts, [00:29:35] but they usually do not feel in charge for the implementation.
[00:29:38] Marc Stickdorn: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:39] Birgit Mager: I personally [00:29:40] think if you do not think about the implementation from the very beginning in service design, [00:29:45] your project is going to end up in a drawer.
[00:29:47] Marc Stickdorn: Yes.
[00:29:48] Birgit Mager: I agree. So that was the, the phase of, you [00:29:50] know, seeing the business perspective, the complexity of structures and organisations that need to [00:29:55] change if you want to change services.
[00:29:57] Birgit Mager: Um, and how do you measure that and how [00:30:00] do you really, you know, um, make sure that, uh, implementation [00:30:05] is not only done, but also measured. And that was then the [00:30:10] time, 11 years ago, 12 years ago, that I started to thinking about the Service [00:30:15] Design Award. The Service Design Award was launched [00:30:20] because we wanted to see those implemented projects where the [00:30:25] impact had been measured.
[00:30:26] Birgit Mager: And when you go on the SDN website there, you find the case study [00:30:30] library and as a member you can see all those cases, all those award cases, [00:30:35] plus many, many others. And, uh, you find a lot of evidence for value [00:30:40] and impact of service design in those cases, which I feel is totally important. [00:30:45]
[00:30:45] Marc Stickdorn: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:30:46] Birgit Mager: If you ask me for as I'm unprepared, I think [00:30:50] then came a phase where we were more looking at the [00:30:55] digital components, um, of, of services. Mm-hmm. It seemed for me, it's [00:31:00] hard to remember, but when I started service design, it was analogue. There was no [00:31:05] internet, there was no iPhone. No, no. It didn't [00:31:10] exist. Um, services were really produced in front of the eyes of the [00:31:15] customer.
[00:31:16] Birgit Mager: It was a participatory process. They could not be stored. [00:31:20] Um, so all those definitions from the old service marketing times were also relevant for us as [00:31:25] designers. You design something that is co-produced with the customer in [00:31:30] front of the eyes of the customer, and it does not have any existence beyond the [00:31:35] time of co-production.
[00:31:37] Birgit Mager: Crazy.
[00:31:38] Marc Stickdorn: Yes. [00:31:40] Then of course,
[00:31:40] Birgit Mager: that changed. It has changed and that was a big thing. How do [00:31:45] you, uh, create digital services and how do you interlink these [00:31:50] different, um, access points and those different, um, levels of [00:31:55] service and how do we enable people to switch within the system [00:32:00] from the digital to the analogue, to the digital, to the analogue?
[00:32:03] Birgit Mager: And that was a really [00:32:05] interesting design challenge. And, um, yeah, digital digitalisation was super, super [00:32:10] important.
[00:32:11] Marc Stickdorn: Yes.
[00:32:11] Birgit Mager: And now of course, I mean, uh, for the last, um, two [00:32:15] years, uh, AI has become one of the most dominant, um, [00:32:20] topics. How do we utilise AI, but also how will [00:32:25] AI change the way services are being delivered and [00:32:30] what does that mean for, for service design?
[00:32:33] Birgit Mager: Uh, will AI design the [00:32:35] services in the future? Um, what role will the service designer play? [00:32:40] Mm-hmm. So those are crucial questions that we are facing now. And, uh, yeah, the last [00:32:45] issue during the last two years, we've had three issues of Touchpoint that were [00:32:50] focusing on artificial intelligence and service design.
[00:32:52] Birgit Mager: So it's really one of the dominant, uh, [00:32:55] topics. Now,
[00:32:56] Marc Stickdorn: of course, I mean, it's a, it's a dominant topic in our lives. Say. [00:33:00] It's, it's changing everything and we design with it, we design for [00:33:05] it. I think one of the biggest question is when, when do we introduce [00:33:10] AI? When do we outsource things to AI? And where do we double down on [00:33:15] human to human experiences?
[00:33:16] Marc Stickdorn: And I think that is something humans need to [00:33:20] decide,
[00:33:21] Birgit Mager: right? Right. Yeah. And I think, um, [00:33:25] it's brings great tools that make our work much more efficient. [00:33:30] Um, but at the, and same time, we know that AI cannot do more [00:33:35] than bringing the um, um. [00:33:40] The, the average, uh, information. And if we want to find [00:33:45] something really new, uh, and include, um, marginalised, uh, [00:33:50] topics, uh, that then might lead to really cool innovations, that is something that at [00:33:55] this point, at least, um, we cannot expect from, from AI into, yeah, [00:34:00]
[00:34:01] Marc Stickdorn: maybe we shouldn't because like, if, [00:34:05] if we as humans have one ability, it is, it is [00:34:10] hopefully empathy and, and building empathy and building for other [00:34:15] humans and being able to, as much as we can in situation slip [00:34:20] into their shoes, of course, we can never live the life of another person, but at least we can [00:34:25] have empathy and try it.
[00:34:26] Birgit Mager: It's gonna be interesting, Marc, because, um, a [00:34:30] good friend of mine, a psychologist, he once said, uh, the keyhole [00:34:35] doesn't care if it's the key or the Dietrich, I don't know the, the, [00:34:40]
[00:34:40] Marc Stickdorn: the fake key. Yeah.
[00:34:42] Birgit Mager: The, the keyhole doesn't care. It will [00:34:45] open either way. Um, so, um, AI is able to, [00:34:50] um, pretend empathy in a way that for most humans is sufficient.
[00:34:54] Birgit Mager: Um, and [00:34:55] you know, if it's real or not, who cares, as long as it feels real. Um, [00:35:00] and yeah, that is something, there's a nice, uh, podcast right now [00:35:05] on Deutschlandfunk about the development of OpenAI. Uh, and [00:35:10] um, they refer quite a bit to that movie that came out, um, years ago. [00:35:15] Uh, Her. Where the person falls in love [00:35:20] with the, um, AI, um, person.
[00:35:23] Birgit Mager: And it's, [00:35:25] it's happening. It's happening again. It's happening.
[00:35:27] Marc Stickdorn: It's,
[00:35:28] Birgit Mager: yes. And does your spouse [00:35:30] ask you here and there, why do you spend more time with ChatGPT than with me? [00:35:35]
[00:35:35] Marc Stickdorn: Luckily, I don't
[00:35:39] Marc Stickdorn: [00:35:40] yet. You never know. You never know. Birgit, I have, I have one last question 'cause we are, we're, I know [00:35:45] we're reaching the end of, of the episode. If you look back where you [00:35:50] started, you come from psychology, organisational development. And actually these are [00:35:55] topics that popped up in between also when we looked at the 40 [00:36:00] years.
[00:36:00] Marc Stickdorn: But these are more relevant than ever today [00:36:05] actually. How do organisations adapt to this new reality? What, [00:36:10] what, what can you still, what, how do you see this connection? What do you [00:36:15] take since 40 years with you that you ever wanted to say?
[00:36:19] Birgit Mager: [00:36:20] Yeah. Well, um, I think, um, throughout all these decades, um, [00:36:25] organisational development, behavioural change, the psychological perspective have [00:36:30] always been with me.
[00:36:31] Birgit Mager: And they are today just as important as they always were. And you cannot do [00:36:35] service design from my point of view. If you don't understand how to trigger [00:36:40] change within organisations and how to take a lens [00:36:45] on, on human behaviour. Um, and that might be the provider behaviour, it might [00:36:50] be the end user behaviour and integrate that in the design of the services as something [00:36:55] that you want to influence.
[00:36:57] Birgit Mager: And that's what we, in, in a sense, we are behaviour [00:37:00] architects in what we are doing. And, uh, uh, so I have always tried to, to make my [00:37:05] students understand that it's not only about making a nice journey map or uh, [00:37:10] creating a beautiful persona, or visualising a beautiful stakeholder map. No, you can even [00:37:15] let go of all that.
[00:37:16] Birgit Mager: You need to understand where in the organisation are the [00:37:20] trigger points for change and how can you get this, you know, energy for [00:37:25] change, uh, in an interdisciplinary way, um, orchestrated [00:37:30] and, and channelled. So yeah, that's something that I've taken with me throughout the last 40 years [00:37:35] and stays just as important as it has always been.
[00:37:39] Marc Stickdorn: [00:37:40] Fantastic. Birgit, thank you so much for taking the time today. [00:37:45] If you want more of Birgit, meet us all at the [00:37:50] Service Design Global Conference coming up, um, uh, and you can meet the [00:37:55] community, become part of the community as well. Join us and uh, [00:38:00] and I hope to see you there, Birgit. We see each other for sure, and I'm looking forward to that.
[00:38:04] Birgit Mager: Me [00:38:05] too. Thanks so much, Marc. Thanks everybody. Hope to see you in, uh, Frankfurt, Rhine-Main region in [00:38:10] October.
[00:38:11] Marc Stickdorn: Brilliant. Thank you, Birgit. Bye-bye. Bye. Have a good [00:38:15] [00:38:20] day.